What are you doing with ITG? I miss the difficult simfiles. Difficult in a good way, no stupid, non sensical steps like DEGRS. I'm sorry, the maker of that file should be fired. It didn't have any thought put into it, rather you just threw in steps to fill it. Personally, I love the file for ITG2's, "!". It's technical, it goes with the music, and it's FUN. So, we all know that ITG3 was about 99% complete before you killed it, now what are you going to do with it? You can't just ignore it, we all know it's the only reason you made the SuperNOVA line. Also, the US is the BIGGEST market for four panel dancing games, why do you insist on giving us piles of **** like SN US? The lack of unlocks was a HUGE disapointment. I still like DDR, I love my arcades upgradicab. But seriously, what are you guys doing with it?

Nothing.

1. Kyle Ward would rather keep making Pump It Up Pro (a spiritual sequel to ITG) than to give Konami his songs.

2. Konami is not going to sell two different dancing games. Making two costs more than making one. Konami thinks that DDR will sell better than any other dancing game. Why make two, if one isn't going to give back more money than the other?

3. Konami is not going to magically improve if they just call the next DDR "In The Groove 3."

And the "no unlocks" thing is mostly Betson's fault for not giving us the device that unlocks them.

I'm with you on the whole ITG thing, but judging by how heavily modded the ITG thread is on here, I highly doubt we will ever see anything ITG related again.  It seems Konami want's to pretend ITG doesnt even exist, let alone accept the fact that it had a bigger fan base and was doing better than ddr did at the time.  You'll know Konami is going for a Monopoly when they try to attack PIU

So yeah, you guys better hope Konami doesn't sue again in order to remove your precious r21 machines. Otherwise ITG will get old and stale...just like DDR EXTREME did when ITG was released.

Well, my point was, ITG3 was scheduled to come out about a month after the law suit. It was 99.99% done. (I talk to  Ward online, so I know about PIUPro, and stuff.) And yes, Konami really is pretending it doesn't exist.

@AJmix... Of course it won't be better. But ITG3 WAS COMPLETE! So why not release it? Or even better, actually listen to what the players want.

Seriously, "!" was fun, AND hard. Songs like Chaos are just stupid. I was able to pass it my 3rd try, a song shouldn't have stupid stops. It should be stamina draining. I mean, I'm only starting to pass 12s. But 10 don't make me work up a sweat anymore, let alone increase my heartrate too much. (From my 65 resting (well, normal activity, resting is really 50) to about 90's to low hundreds. Where as playing a set of Go *60* Go, !, and then July will rocket my heart rate into my cardio zone (150+) And attempting Determinator I can get into anaerobic range (190+) in the midde run.

"But ITG3 WAS COMPLETE! So why not release it?"

Because they don't own the music. It wouldn't be complete if it didn't have anything by Kyle Ward, who is too busy moving on to his new project, Pump It Up Pro.

Instead of spending twice as much money making two different dancing games that appeal to two different groups, Konami would rather make one dance game that appeals to everybody, and (unfortunately) DDR is the most well known. Burger King. While they're not doing well at it, yes, but that's why they have suggestion threads on DDR:UK.

EDIT: There's always ITG2, PIU Pro, and PIU Regular which all have difficult, good, and fun stepcharts, not to mention the good works of the Stepmania community, which can be played on R21.

While the first post is .... not so great, I would like to have Konami give an official answer, even if it's just to say "No more ITG." Then at least we'd know forsure instead of 99% sure with guesses.

It'd be nice to have an explanation to go with their answer too ^^

As far as what the others said, ITG was owned by Roxor, not by Ward. Konami sued Roxor, not Ward. Anythinig that Roxor owned for IP that pertained to ITG was acquired by Konami, and one could safely assume that this applies to copyright usage for any songs already submitted to use to Roxor for use in ITG.

Making two games doesn't necessarily cost more than making one, and it has a greater possibility to make more income than just one. Especially if they assembly-line ANYTHING about the whole process, then making two makes more sense than  making just one. That's why car manufacturers have many different models, not just "Car, Truck."

PUI, has been out JUST about as long as DDR has been, and I'm sure if Konami had any legal ground to sue them, they would have already. That's not to say that Konoami's evil or anything, it'd just make good sense to. If you can eliminate competition in any way, it's always good!

"Because they don't own the music." - I dare say that much of the music that appears in DDR isn't owned by bemani. It doesn't usually work like that. Sogns get licensed for use in situations and circumstances and whatever was prepared for ITG3 was probably already licensed to Roxor. If it was, then Konami probably acquired those licenses and can use the songs no problem.

However these forums get modded (deleting/editing/whatevering posts), I'd like to know what the official policy is for talking about such things. If there're rules I'm breaking by saying whatever, I'd like to know so I don't continue to offend those in charge. I imagine everyone else would like to know that sorta thing as well and hopefully the explanation/justification/reasoning/whatevering behind those rules ^^

Where exactly are you getting your stats to say that ITG had a bigger fanbase and sold better? That statement certainly isn't reflected in terms of CS sales, and there are much more DDR machines worldwide (I would argue that DDR/DS SuperNOVA has more machines around the world than both ITGs do, but I really don't feel like counting that much)

Anyways, to the ITG thing...they're not gonna do anything, it's been over a year since the settlement, why are people still expressing questions about this? Konami would be selling ITG machines still if they really cared about it. 

I don't think in this instance continuing both series would be beneficial. Most arcades are not particularlly concerned with what Dance machines they get, most just like to get the "newest dance game" (In fact, I believe one of the things Roxor did was call arcades marketing ITG as the 'newest DDR game'). I don't really think most are going to care either way whether they go with one series or the other. Anyways, it's not like ITG is completely dead...there are numerous projects out there that try to create ITG-Like packs, and between Stepmania, Hacked ITG machines, r21, and Hacked ITG PS2 discs, there's not really a shortage of things to play on. Plus you have Pump Pro.

QUOTE

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PUI, has been out JUST about as long as DDR has been, and I'm sure if Konami had any legal ground to sue them, they would have already. That's not to say that Konoami's evil or anything, it'd just make good sense to. If you can eliminate competition in any way, it's always good!

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They did, and Andamiro settled. Ages ago. How do ITG players not know this?

IP lawsuits are not about eliminating the competition, although sometimes that does happen. IP lawsuits are about other people profiting off of your work. PIU didn't fall very far from DDR's tree. ITG is obviously even more similar to DDR than PIU. (Layout, interface, modifers, ratings, windows, everything!) If you want to make a dance game, don't do it four-on-floor style! Make it different like Dancemaniax or something. The ITG devs weren't saints. The least ITG could've done was vary from DDR as much as PIU did, but they didn't even do that. Why they get so much sympathy is beyond me.

"let alone accept the fact that it had a bigger fan base and was doing better than ddr did at the time."

LOL 

I second the notion for official word on ITG. I'm not the biggest fan, but I want the issue to be put to rest already.

I don't think Konami acquired the designs for the ITG2 dedicab, because that was actually made by Andamiro.  Unless they find a way to engineer something roughly equivalent, or better, it doesn't really make sense to manufacture ITG.  DDR cabinets are very difficult to play ITG on, what with recessed arrows and all.  Some other issues seem to exist.  Unless the game's code is significantly altered, the R21 patch will still be able to be applied, which is likely a serious concern for Konami.  I like R21.  It seems to be a legal issue, however.  I would love to see ITG brought back, even without R21, but only if it was done right.  Maybe get the community involved.  There's more talent available for ITG style stepchart making in the community than in Konami, most likely.  No offense meant to Konami, the style of stepcharts between the two games are just very different. 

A home version would be much easier to produce.  It would likely work as a gauge for interest in the game.  Although I don't know that there's really that much of an overlap between the home and arcade market.  At any rate, I think that's where ITG3 would be mostly likely to show up, if anywhere.  At least in the near future.  Not saying any of this is plausible, but it's my estimation of how things should or would have to come to fruition, if at all.

Well, owning both types of cabs I can tell you that the itg dedicabs are made to be as identical as possible to DDR while addressing very few things. One is the depth of panel recession; itg is more shallow. Another is screen size. The last would be the flat screws. Except for the actual boxor, everything else is pretty much interchangable.

"They did, and Andamiro settled. Ages ago. How do ITG players not know this?"

Can you link me to some info on this one? They obviously didn't settle the same way Roxor did since they're still making Pump !

Right here. At the bottom of the page.

EDIT: Here's a better article about the whole thing.

Oh, and touche. 

Awesome, thanks!

"They obviously didn't settle the same way Roxor did since they're still making Pump !"

Uh....yeah.

Because ITG is a direct ripoff of DDR in layout and play style, which Konami owns the rights to, and Pump is 5 panels, all of which are not placed like DDR's 4 panels, so it doesn't infringe on their intellectual property rights.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out the differences between DDR/ITG and PIU.

ITG existed because they used Konami's hardware for free, don't forget that. If Ward hadn't decided to illegally use DDR cabinets for his own product, ITG would've never seen the light of day unless someone setup a stepamnia machine at home and played it on that.

As an aside, I don't understand why everyone is asking for an explanation on what Konami's gonna do with ITG. They own the name. They don't own the songs or anything. What're they gonna release? DDR songs on a game called ITG?

ITG is dead, live with it and go back to playing R21. I'll do the same since Betson clearly doesn't want my business.

"let alone accept the fact that it had a bigger fan base and was doing better than ddr did at the time."

Numbers and evidence? Also keep in mind the age of the most recent DDR release at the time of ITG's release, and the fact that ITG2 was released and being played for a looooong time before SN came out. Why wouldn't it gather more attention? It's something new after 5+ years of playing DDREX with no real competition around it for well into a few years.

As far as the "ITG3 was complete! Why didn't they release it?" thing.....ever heard of legal fees?

ITG3 was complete in one way though, it was complete crap. So those whining about it not coming out should thank their lucky stars that it didn't, because it would've killed the series' reputation.

"It's "except", and even putting that in, that's not a complete sentence."

 No it isn't.  His grammar was a bit off, but he definitely meant to use the word he used.

I read the quote out of context.

I stand by everything else I said.

"If Ward hadn't decided to illegally use DDR cabinets for his own product, ITG would've never seen the light of day unless someone setup a stepamnia machine at home and played it on that."

Using someone else's cabs had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the lawsuit. People upgrade cabs all the time. People rip old games out of cabs and put entirely different ones in. It's totally up to the owner of the machine (the person who bought it from the distributor) what they want to do with it. That's why people (including Konami) sell upgrade kits.

"They own the name. They don't own the songs or anything."

They own all IP pertaining to ITG. That would include any copyright usages granted to Roxor for use in ITG3. Roxor doesn't (didn't) own the songs that are in ITG1/2, they purchased (hopefully) rights to use them in their game. Such rights would have transferred to Konami with the acquisition of ITG. If those rights hadn't transferred, all the artists (including Ward) would have grounds to sue Konami.

"ITG3 was complete in one way though, it was complete crap."

Well, maybe the stuff you got was crap. The charts I have are some of the best charts I've ever seen.

I think everyone appreciates your input and your opinions but a lot of what you're saying is just factually incorrect. I'm not flaming you or anything but if the 'online community' as a whole wants an answer from Konami about what's going to happen, then the 'online community' should try starting by at least getting their facts straight.

"Using someone else's cabs had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the lawsuit."

Actually, that's exactly how the lawsuit started out.

From the site: "The present lawsuit complains that Roxor Game's refitting of DDR arcade games has been done in an infringing and unfair way." 

"People upgrade cabs all the time. People rip old games out of cabs and put entirely different ones in."

Making upgrade kits for other manufacturers' games and selling them in a legal way only applies to generic JAMMA cabinets (the kind with just joysticks and regular buttons). That doesn't apply to deluxe cabinets, such as DDR.

"They own all IP pertaining to ITG. That would include any copyright usages granted to Roxor for use in ITG3."

Roxor doesn't own some of the songs in ITG. Since Konami only gotten IP that Roxor owned (since they sued Roxor, not anybody who made the music), Konami didn't get the songs.

"If those rights hadn't transferred, all the artists (including Ward) would have grounds to sue Konami."

Exactly. That's why they can't mass produce a game that has their music on it without their permission, whether it be DDR with ITG songs in it or ITG3.

Kyle Ward still owns his songs, since he is putting them in PIU Pro.

The problem primarily was that Roxor infringed on patented technology that they didn't pay for the right to use. That was the first count in the claim after all. It's not that they used the -hardware- for free, it's that they used the -technology-. If Bob Smith had patented the two button arcade game play design rock solid then everyone who wanted to use that technology would have to pay him some moneys. If Joe Johnson paid Bob Smith to use his technology to build a cabinet based on the two button arcade design, and so did Harriet Ping and 8 other people, then you'd have 10 people who can use that technology in their games. It doesn't matter what the games are or how they're laid out, they've paid for the rights to use the technology. That doesn't mean that Bob Smith has to actually physically MAKE the HARDWARE and then distribute it to Joe and Harriet and the 8 other people.

It doesn't matter if it's a 2 button design, 5 panel, or one punching bag. The right to use the technology depends on there being a patent in place. If there is, you have to pay for that right (or ask really REALLY nicely). If there isn't, you don't.

All that means is, in the end, even if Roxor started out making their own cabs from the start, if they made them the same way they ended up making them, they'd still be out of luck because the TECHNOLOGY, not the hardware, was what was really at issue. That's what patents are all about.

If Roxor didn't own the rights to use the songs in ITG, then the artists should sue them right now. If they did own the rights to use the songs in ITG, then Konami has acquired those rights, and they can use those songs. I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that any artist out there would be dumb enough or desperate enough to actually sell a song. That would mean they'd have no rights to play it live, put it on cd, or anything, ever again.

It'd still be nice if Konami would say one way or another what they want to, or not to, do with it ^^

Who was the first company to make a game where two people have health bars at the top of the screen, and those health bars decrease as the two on-screen characters attack one another?

Who was the first company to make a game utilizing a light gun that the players "shoots" the screen with?

Who was the first company to make a game where a single protagonist jumps around and collects things?

Who was the first company to make a game with four arrows that scroll to the top of the screen in time with music?

ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER! 

That's right. One of them was patented :P

"I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that any artist out there would be dumb enough or desperate enough to actually sell a song. That would mean they'd have no rights to play it live, put it on cd, or anything, ever again."

Exactly, that's why licenses do not work that way.

Roxor wanted use the song "Bumble Bee" in In The Groove 2. Roxor goes to Bambee's label to get permission to use "Bumble Bee" in their work. To do this, Roxor pays royalties (money). If they get the license, they can put the song in In The Groove without fear of Bambee suing them for copyright infringement.

It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the basics. 

"like DEGRS. I'm sorry, the maker of that file should be fired. It didn't have any thought put into it, rather you just threw in steps to fill it."

I just want to make a comment here, Dead End Groove Radar Special isn't supposed to make sense.  None of the Groove Radar Specials are.  They were intended to max out the groove radar for a particular attribute, and in Dead End's case, it was to max out the whole thing.  So the steps had to be stupid to max out the radar, no normal steps would do that.

About In the Groove, Konami probably won't do anything with it, mainly because it's just like DDR.  Maybe they will incorporate more ITG-like charts later (which will get the DDR Fans mad) but nothing more.